Pat Thornton is the author of the Journalism Iconoclast weblog. He’s outspoken and unafraid to skewer some sacred journalistic icons (hence the name). He currently works for Stars & Stripes. More bio here. I interviewed Pat last week via gmail chat. This is an edited transcript of that interview.

ICM: Alright, first a little background to familiarize our readers with you. What’s your title at Stars & Stripes and how long have you been working there?

Thornton: My title is something like Web Content Editor, although it probably needs some revising. I was recently put in charge of our blogs. I’ve been here about a year and a half.
ICM: How large is the S&S web staff?
Thornton: Editorial is 4 people. There are other Web people who do strictly technical tasks.
ICM: Do you consider S&S a “converged” operation? Or is there still a wall between print and web?
Thornton: There is a strong wall. Ironically, the Web staff does work that gets into the print edition, but print staffers rarely do work that is Web-exclusive.
ICM: Do you see that changing? Has it changed since you started?
Thornton: Stripes is a unique operation because our print circulation is growing. Our Web and print audiences are quite dissimilar too. So, it makes sense to expand the Web staff, so we can serve our Web audience better. But, I would like to see the two staffs work together more. We get along with the print staff, and they do produce content for us on major Web projects.
It has changed a bit since I started. On some special features I have led, I’ve gotten some help from print reporters and photographers.
ICM: What’s an average day like for you as a web-content editor?
Thornton: That really depends on the day. Some days I put print content on the Web site and design a top story graphic for our homepage. Other days, I’m out in the field capturing multimedia content. Other days, I’m writing HTML and CSS. The typical day is a combination of at least two of those. Obviously, there are certain days I prefer over others.
ICM: What’s the biggest challenge you face in your job?
Thornton: Fomenting change. Innovation. It’s a big cultural challenge.
ICM: How are you overcoming that challenge in the newsroom?
Thornton: Slowly. In a newsroom like Stripes, change takes time. Patience is key. Stripes doesn’t have to innovate right now because there are two major wars going on, which have caused our reach and circulation to grow. But if Stripes wants to grow stateside — it’s not printed stateside — it will have to be much more innovative on the Web.
ICM: Your weblog writings are often challenging to the way news media (especially newspapers) do new media. Has that ever caused a problem with your work? Do your bosses read your blog?
Thornton: It has not caused problems with work. Stripes has no issues with me blogging, and I wouldn’t work for an employer that did. In fact, the success of my blog is a major reason I’m now the editor in charge of our blogging operations. I don’t know if my bosses regularly read my blog. My guess is no.
ICM: So you’re the blog editor - how’s that going?
Thornton: It just happened this month. We still have to work out exactly what they want me to do with our blogging operations here and what our ultimate goals are for them. We’re installing a new print and Web CMS this month, so things are pretty hectic. I should be able to answer that question much better in a month. But we needed drastic change with your blogging operations. The JI gets more traffic than Stripes’ most popular blog, and my blog is not backed by a 100,000 circulation newspaper.
ICM: heh. back to the journalism iconoclast. What prompted you to start blogging?
Thornton: The JI is not my first blog. It’s actually my third attempt at blogging, but it’s my first successful blog. I knew I wanted to blog and share my thoughts. I was an opinion columnist for my college newspaper and was successful at that. I also figured out that if I wanted to have a popular blog, I would have to write about something I knew about. Journalism and Web development are two important things in my life. And sometimes I get so fired up, I just have to get it out somehow. Some nights I can’t get to sleep until I write a post to vent my frustration.
ICM: Where do you get inspiration for your posts?
Thornton: Many places. I have a bunch of journalism bloggers in Google Reader. My last post was inspired by a post by William M. Hartnett. Readers of the JI also send me links and suggestions to blog about. Other posts are framed our my personal experiences. I do a lot of thinking throughout the day, and eventually some of my thoughts become ideas for posts.
ICM: What have you learned from the experience of blogging?

Thornton: First, blogging can give anyone a voice. I don’t work for a major journalism corporation, and yet I have one of the more popular journalism blogs. Second, blogging is a great networking and marketing tool. I’ve met a lot of great people through my blog and have been approached with a lot of great ideas because of it.
Any journalism student who wants to get noticed should get a blog. Starting the JI is the best journalism decision I have ever made.
ICM: Okay, obviously our audience is primarily student journalists and advisers. What tips do you have for students who are now in college - maybe working on their school newspaper or whatever - to prepare for the future of journalism?
Thornton: Working on my student newspaper was another one of the best decisions I ever made. There is so much autonomy at many student publications. I was eventually editor in chief, and I got to force real change. Also, working at a student publication is a great way to try different things. I wrote sports, news, was a columnist, a photographer, built special features and an editor. If there ever was a time to take risks — big risks — it’s when you are in college. And one of those risks might turn out to have a huge reward.
To prepare for the future, I’d say this:
Have at least two things you are really good at besides reporting and editing. Mine are HTML and CSS and multimedia reporting.
Every journalist needs to know how to write, edit and report. But the future needs journalists who get and understand the Web.

And if you want to make journalism better — truly foment change — you have to believe there is no idea too crazy to succeed. Journalism needs dreamers. Journalism needs entrepreneurs. Journalism needs people willing to take big risks. The status quo will result in all of us losing our jobs.
ICM: You mention that journalists need to “get and understand the Web.” Could you flesh that out a little more. Lots of students, for instance, know facebook, youtube, and the like. Is there something more to understanding “the Web”?
Thornton: It’s one of those things that if you need someone to show you how to do something or if you need to read a manual for something like YouTube or Blogger.com, you don’t really get the Web.
Anyone can use Facebook. We need people who have that entrepreneurial spirit — the people starting their own blogs, creating their own personal sites, etc. Making a MySpace page is nothing. Do you know some HTML and CSS? Can you FTP files to your site? That’s understanding the Web. And getting the Web means that you understand that the Web is an interconnected Web of people, cultures and civilizations.

Just because you can shoot video or make an audio slideshow, doesn’t mean you get that concept. Journalism needs people who understand that the Web is a community. That’s how we break out of this one-way communication paralysis in journalism. The Web allows everyone to have a voice, and many journalists — and journalism students — still don’t get that.
ICM: Do you have any “big risks” on the horizon you’d care to mention - any entrepreneurial efforts?
Thornton: This is the year I start taking big risks. I can’t really talk about anything yet, but expect some announcements this summer. I can say that I will be applying for a Knight News Challenge grant.
ICM: Okay, so besides the blog, do you have one work project that you’re especially proud of that you’d like to mention with a link?

Thornton: Army-Navy - I’m proud of it because it’s the first project I planned for Stripes. I designed the feature, coded it, wrote some of the content, captured audio, took photos and did some multimedia.

Check it out.

Previous coverage: ICM Interview with Ryan here.

David Cohn has been a prolific proponent of community or networked journalism. Additionally, he’s been a friend of college media, speaking at the 2006 New York CMA convention and offering to judge a category in the ICM contests. Recently, he won a Knight Challenge Grant for a project to fund journalistic reporting. I chatted with David via instant messaging last Friday. This is the edited transcript of that interview.

ICM: Okay, so first question: What’s been going on with you this year aside from the Knight grant, which we’ll talk about later?

Cohn: Sure. This has been a busy year. I finished at Columbia’s J-school and moved back to San Francisco. During that time, I’ve still been working with Jay on NewAssignment.net projects. The main two being BeatBlogging.org and OffTheBus.net. I’ve played a very small role in OTB and a more day-to-day role in beat blogging. I’ve also been working with the folks at NewsTrust.net as a contributing editor. That’s been the bulk of my time.

ICM: What have you learned about networked journalism and the “future of journalism” during this time?

Cohn: There is so much I’ve learned that it’s hard to boil it down. A few things.

1. People will always be more important than technology. We have amazing technological tools and one can do amazing things with them, but if the person wielding them doesn’t have the mind or skill set to use them for online organizing, which is essentially what networked journalism is “online organizing” - then the tools are useless. I don’t know what the future of journalism will look like, but I do believe it will be participatory in some form or other. It’s important to keep in mind that none of this is a science and it may never be. Clay Shirky recently used weather prediction as an example: We know what elements need to combine to create a storm, but we can never be 100% certain that a storm is coming until we feel the rain drops - that’s what building online communities is like - we have an idea of what elements are needed, but it’s still a guessing game. But we are in the early stages - so the best thing to do now is try.

ICM: So what’s been your greatest success over this year?

Cohn: Well, with BeatBlogging it’s about small success. In a strange way - just getting a non-web journalist to sign up for twitter and then a month later telling you how they use it and it makes their job better/easier is a big success. With OffTheBus.net - the Mayhill scoop was huge and talking with Amanda Michel, who runs OffTheBus.net, I think we did the right thing by running it. And while the Mayhill thing was a big note worthy happening - I’m still more moved and happy with the personal changes. A lot of what I do is “consulting” - although I hate that word. And it’s nice that when you work with someone to get them on the web they finally see the power and what it has to offer.

ICM: You mention the Mahill scoop. Any regrets with the way that turned out?

Cohn: No. There are lots of alternatives, none of which I like: Imagine if we didn’t run it - but then later somebody found out we did have that information and consciously didn’t run it. Not to mention - I could imagine a situation where that same information could have been leaked on YouTube. Think back to the macaca moment. The fact is - there is no “off the record” anymore unless you say the words.

ICM: Cool. So what have you learned this year that will benefit student journalists … I mean, a lot of people have jumped on the “multimedia” bandwagon, but you’ve stayed in the more esoteric area of journalism. How can that help college media?

Cohn: That’s very true ie: digital storytelling versus community management. I have some digital storytelling skills - but I’m no ace.

The main thing I’ve learned - which I think applies to people who are great digital storytellers or people who want to stay on the community side of things, which can be described as esoteric I suppose. It is possible to make your career outside of mainstream news organizations. Wether you are Brian Storm or Michel Tippet - who to me represent digital storytelling and networked journalism very well - it’s possible to make your own career still. So far I haven’t worked for a MAJOR news organization. The largest company I’ve worked for was Wired.com - and that was before they were owned by Conde Nast. The point is: Follow your passions - do what you are good at and just DO IT. I know it’s becoming cliche - but that’s because there is truth to it.

Don’t get disheartened. Journalism needs smart people - so you will be in demand.

ICM: okay, so tell me a little about your Knight grant, and how that relates to what you’ve been doing recently.

Cohn: Sure. The Knight grant is for Spot.us - which is community funded reporting. I’ve been working mostly on the content side of networked journalism but I always wondered how it could be sustainable. Spot.us is still participatory journalism - but the participation from the public is by donating money. It’s very similar to Kiva.org or DonorsChoose which have raised millions of dollars for their causes. It’s also a chance for freelance journalists to get paid while building out their portfolio - while doing what they do best: reporting.

ICM: What has been the response so far for your proposal? I know Len Witt got a lot of negative reaction to his idea of “representative journalism”

Cohn: So far I’ve only gotten positive reactions - but I think that’s because those with negative reactions haven’t confronted me. I am told that my proposal was the most contentious of all the winners. From what I understand all the web judges loved it and all the journalist readers didn’t. But I am anticipating the negative reactions and I have responses - both verbally and in the site. I am building the site keeping their concerns in mind.

ICM: So what are your goals for the site?

Cohn: Short term goals: Just have a proof of concept. It’s unknown whether people will be willing to put 10-25$ down for journalism. I think they will if the pitch is right. So - in the beginning I’m just going to focus on getting a few good stories funded and published. It will focus on the SF Bay Area at first. Ideally - if it’s successful after the first year we will expand to other cities. What I’m building is a platform that any journalist can use.

But it’s going to be small steps to get there.

ICM: Bringing it back to our core audience, how can college journalists learn from this?

Cohn: A few things.

1. Apply for the Knight grant. Seriously. Four of the other winners were undergraduate college students.

2. Once you are done with college, if journalism is something you want to persue Spot.us is a tool that might be useful for getting started. There are others too.

3. If you have a cool idea - share it. That’s what I did and it worked out. Len Witt, who you mentioned earlier, had a similar idea and blogged it - and then somebody gave him 51k to make it happen. Share your entrepreneurial ideas and you never know what might happen.

ICM: What are your plans for this year: just work on spot.us, or other projects?
Cohn: Yes, Spot.us is going to be where I put the lions share of my time. I’m not going to disappear from NewAssignment.net or NewsTrust, but I am going to take a serious back seat. In some ways this is an extension of what I’ve learned at NewAssignment.net.

ICM: Are you seeing a change in the way journalists embrace the Internet? Are the “wars” over? Is this a good thing for college journalists as they work on their campus media outlets?

Cohn: I do think the war is over. There is still a sense of panic though. The industry isn’t going to die - but it is going to re-invent itself. That’s a good thing for students. The belief that it was going to be a battle is over - now it’s about learning to adapt and that’s where young recent grads can come in and really shake things up. Again I’ll point to the college students who won this year. One of them was telling me he wanted to apply to Columbia’s J-school. I love Columbia but I was telling him not to. As I see it - if he can leave UCLA having revamped his university’s CMS - he can walk into any organization he wants. So while working on your college media outlet - see what you can do there to embrace the internet. It’s a great opportunity to experiment.

Rex Hammock (who I met in Nashville, but is now in Austin at SXSW) and Jeff Jarvis provide good advice for folks who conduct interviews. Now, they will say the advice is for those who conduct interviews in a public setting, but I’m going to say that advice extends to any kind of interview setting. Read them here: Rex - Sarah Lacy was not as bad as Miss Teen South Carolina: Reflections from observing a train wreck, and Jarvis - Zuckerberg interview: What went wrong.

If you’ll notice most of the interviews I conduct here at the ICM blog, I ask a question and let the subject answer. It’s easier to do in an IM setting (or in Skype, as with Paul Bradshaw), but it’s still essential to learn if you’re going to do anything with the interview other than transcribe it for a print story: let the subject talk. Know the context you’re in, and fit into the context.

To borrow a phrase from Rick Warren: “It’s not about you.”

I interviewed Kiyoshi Martinez over a year ago when he was a student at the University of Illinois. He’s since taken a job with 22nd Century Media as a web editor. We chatted Tuesday night about his job and issues related to student media and the web. Check below the fold for the full transcript.

(as an aside, this is my first entry in the journalism blog carnival, which is being hosted this week by Scribblesheet in England. Check here for some information about the blog carnival.)

(more…)

Paul Bradshaw recently wrote a blog post entitled “How to be a journalism student.” The posting caused quite a stir in the journalism education blogosphere, so I contacted Paul to arrange an interview. Instead of IM, the interview was conducted via Skype audio. In the interview, we talk about the inspiration for Paul’s post, some of the criticisms it received, how journalists are trained in the U.K., what sorts of things he’s teaching students these days, and future plans for his site: Online Journalism Blog.

Here’s a link to the complete interview: Paul Bradshaw (mp3)

By reader request, I’ve broken the interview down into smaller chunks and will be posting those later this evening.

A couple of the links mentioned in the interview:

The News Diamond and the 21st century newsroom, and Part 2

How to Be a Journalism Student wiki

I finished an interview with U.K. new media professor Paul Bradshaw this morning via Skype, and I have about 30 minutes of interview. My question to the audience: Would you rather have the interview as a single long mp3 to listen to, or as smaller chunks - about 5-10 minutes in length?

I’m taking advice in the comments.

I interviewed Cedric Bryant, head recruiter for Gannett, about skills students need to know to work for the organization he represents. Here’s video (turn up the volume, as I’m using a small digital camera):

Click To Play

Note: A while back, I asked readers for suggestions of who I should interview next for the weblog. Lots of great suggestions, and I’m finally getting around to contacting folks. One of the more popular suggestions was Derek Willis, who works with data at washingtonpost.com. This interview was conducted Thursday, Oct. 3, 2007 via Instant Messaging. 

ICM: First off, maybe you could explain for the audience what you do at WaPo.

Willis: I’m a database editor at washingtonpost.com, which technically is a separate company from The Washington Post, the newspaper. I work on finding and gathering data, do a little coding of database applications and generally try to think of cool ideas we can execute.

Most of the apps that I work on are politics-related, but I also try to do other stuff.

ICM: We hear a lot about database-driven journalism these days from industry folks. Is this a more concerted effort than in the past, or are we just hearing about it more?

Willis: Probably both, I think. Database journalism has been around for several decades and has a small but loyal group of practitioners, mostly at newspapers. But the Web has opened up the playing field in several ways, the most significant being that we’re no longer constrained by the limitations of a printed paper or broadcast.

So we’re hearing more because there’s more data that’s accessible, but this is not a new movement in journalism. Many of us doing this now owe a great deal to people like Elliot Jaspin, Phillip Meyer, Steve Doig, guys like that.

ICM: You wrote on your weblog the other day: “But until and unless journalism schools show that data has any sort of importance to them, most journalism students only will be exposed to the possibilities, but not the actual process, of working with data on the Web.” How are you personally doing that at GWU, for instance. And what are some ways college media advisers could use to get students interested in the subject?

Willis: In the class I teach, I try to make as much of the data we work with as local as possible, meaning the campus and its surrounding environment. In practice, that means campus crime data, student demographic statistics, even data on the academic backgrounds of faculty. Sports is a huge opportunity for this type of work - almost noone gets closer to student-athletes than other students.

So, for advisors, I’d suggest thinking about ways to collect, analyze and display data that’s important to the college community, whether that’s crime reports or a log of all of the football team’s plays.

ICM: And let’s suppose that a student gets hooked on database-driven journalism, but they have no (or very little) training in that area, any suggestions for where they could get started?

Willis: Sure. Realizing that walking into the school’s computer science department with confidence isn’t always the easiest thing to do, I’d say that there are plenty of academic disciplines that use data all the time. So if a student knows a professor who does survey research, that’s usually database-oriented. Or political scientists who study election results or voter participation - they usually deal with datasets.

But the easiest and probably best way is to just start. Start keeping some information in a spreadsheet. Pretty soon you’ll learn how to deal with issues and problems. Then you’ll outgrow the spreadsheet and start looking around for a more robust solution.

Free or cheap database software and hosting is abundantly available, too, especially on university campuses. It’s a matter of asking for it.

ICM: How do you keep ideas coming for database projects?

Willis: One of the best ways for me is to read the paper or listen to the news and ask myself, “How do they know that?” whenever something interesting comes up. Or a matter of conventional wisdom. If you’re arguing with a friend over whether the basketball team always shoots more 3-pointers in the second half, well that’s measurable.

There are these things that “everybody knows” - where not to park, for example - and these things are largely based on anecdotal evidence.

I like trying to find ways to test out anecdotal theories.

ICM: For those who may be curious, what’s a good range of the turnaround time on projects you work on - and how many people get involved.

Willis: It varies pretty wildly. Yesterday I got handed something and finished it off, except for design, by today. Other projects take a week or several weeks. Our congressional votes database took Adrian Holovaty and I three months, with Adrian doing most of the work.

Designers are usually the first “other” people to be involved, outside the original source of the idea. And then you’ll get higher-level editors involved depending on the significance of the project.

ICM: what lessons have you learned over your career that might help college journalists in general, or specifically those who may be pursuing a career in your area of specialization. Like, “wow, I wish I’d know that when I was starting,” kind of things.

Willis: I think the first is to never assume that you can’t do this stuff, that databases are beyond the capabilities of college students. You have as much right and responsibility to do it as any other journalist.

The other thing is that as a journalist, you need to find out about sources of data on your beat. This is not a specialty thing anymore. If you don’t understand how the people or institutions you cover are using data, you won’t have a complete picture of what they are doing, and you’ll be at a disadvantage when it comes to evaluating their performance.

The use of data is an arms race, and journalists cannot dismiss it as “that techie stuff” anymore. So on every beat, find out how data is being used and try to replicate what you can in terms of being able to use it yourself.

ICM: That’s a very good point that I don’t know everyone has grasped yet.

Willis: it’s very difficult to explain, because it’s not transparently obvious. But if you’re a sports reporter, you know that the teams are using data and video to evaluate their opponents. You know that political candidates are doing the same with theirs. You know that police agencies use data more and more to justify budgets and patrol areas. It’s an increasingly important component of decision-making.

ICM: As someone who’s worked in the industry and with technology for a while, are you optimistic or pessimistic about the future of the news”paper” industry? If so, why?

Willis: I’m optimistic for the long-term, but the short-term scares me a little bit, because I don’t know that we’ve seen the worst in terms of layoffs and budget cuts at papers.

I do think that newspapers in particular have a large role to play in society and that we can continue it, with a few adjustments for this new environment we’re in. But as readers transition online, leaving a smaller but fairly stable paper readership, we’ve got to figure out how to support the creation of journalism - how to pay for the valuable stuff we do.

And given our industry’s track-record when it comes to innovation, that does cause me some concern.

ICM: Finally, I ask this of everyone I interview: What’s one project you’ve worked on recently that you’d like to point people to as a showcase of your work. Any “back story” that would explain the project?

Willis: Hmm. Even though it’s now two years ago, it’s hard for me to not say our votes database, because I’m extremely proud of that app. Not just because of the public service it provides, which was a major reason we did it, but because it essentially launched database journalism apps at washingtonpost.com.

The funny thing about the votes database is that Adrian and I were able to build it because no one else really cared about the data - we didn’t ask for permission because I had gathered the data and it didn’t fall under anyone’s responsibilities. So we worked basically alone on it and then, just before it launched, we showed it off to people at washingtonpost.com and at The Post.

And it continues to serve as an illustration of good web apps in that we’re never done with it. A few weeks ago I added a particular slice of votes (approval of the House Journal) because I noticed some interesting patterns there.

I’m really, really proud of that app, and very lucky to have a guy like Adrian make it work.

I’m throwing this out to the audience: who would you like to hear from?

As you know, in the past, we’ve had the opportunity to talk to some people I consider “heroes” in new media journalism. While I have my own list of folks I hope to interview in the future, I want to hear from you. Who else would you like to see subjected to the ICM IM interview format? Drop a suggestion in the comments and I promise I’ll start rolling on trying to make it happen.

Previous ICM interviews:

Regina McCombs, startribune.com multimedia producer:

http://www.collegemediainnovation.org/blog/2007/07/06/icm-interview-regina-mccombs-startribunecom-multimedia-producer/

Will Sullivan, interactive editor for Palm Beach Post:

http://www.collegemediainnovation.org/blog/2007/06/27/icm-interview-will-sullivan-aka-the-journerdist/

Ryan Sholin, Santa Cruz Sentinel:

http://www.collegemediainnovation.org/blog/2007/06/06/icm-interview-ryan-sholin/

Mindy McAdams, professor at U of Florida:

http://www.collegemediainnovation.org/blog/2006/08/21/reinventinginterviewmindymcadams/

Howard Owens, digital media guru for Gatehouse Media:

http://www.collegemediainnovation.org/blog/2007/01/15/icm-interview-howard-owens/

Rob Curley, Washington Post:

http://www.collegemediainnovation.org/blog/2007/03/02/icm-interview-rob-curley/

Jennifer Carroll, Gannett:

http://www.collegemediainnovation.org/blog/2007/04/14/blueprint-for-gannetts-future/

Angela Grant, San Antonio Express-News video producer:

http://www.collegemediainnovation.org/blog/2007/04/03/new-media-skills-better-job-prospects/

John Siegenthaler, journalism giant:

http://www.collegemediainnovation.org/blog/2007/03/31/seigenthaler-on-new-media/

Len Witt, director of the Public Journalism Network:

http://www.collegemediainnovation.org/blog/2006/06/14/opensourcereinventionaninterviewwithleonardwitt/